With Vulkan and DX12 just around the corner, it appears that AMD has officially stopped working on its low-level API, Mantle. While the red team will not be dropping Mantle support for its GCN graphics cards, it has ceased all further Mantle optimizations for its future GPUs.
This information comes from Anandtech who claimed that AMD has confirmed its intentions to cease all further Mantle optimizations for all its graphics cards.
As Anandtech wrote:
“AMD has confirmed that while they are not outright dropping Mantle support, they have ceased all further Mantle optimization. Of particular note, the Mantle driver has not been optimized at all for GCN 1.2, which includes not just R9 Fury X, but R9 285, R9 380, and the Carrizo APU as well. Mantle titles will probably still work on these products.”
And to be honest, this was to be expected. Like it or not, this is exactly what NVIDIA claimed a few months ago, and that’s precisely why the green team did not support this API. Okay okay, NVIDIA would not support this API no matter what.
Still, it’s a bit disappointing that AMD decided to cease further Mantle optimizations for its future graphics cards.
John is the founder and Editor in Chief at DSOGaming. He is a PC gaming fan and highly supports the modding and indie communities. Before creating DSOGaming, John worked on numerous gaming websites. While he is a die-hard PC gamer, his gaming roots can be found on consoles. John loved – and still does – the 16-bit consoles, and considers SNES to be one of the best consoles. Still, the PC platform won him over consoles. That was mainly due to 3DFX and its iconic dedicated 3D accelerator graphics card, Voodoo 2. John has also written a higher degree thesis on the “The Evolution of PC graphics cards.”
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So much for “The Future of Gaming”. They didn’t exactly push it very well. Typical AMD, Not working with devs to implement their technology. No wonder Nvidia has a grip on developers with implementing GameWorks
Are you kidding me? DirectX 12 makes Mantle redundant. It was a good thing they worked on Mantle because it pushed Microsoft to release DX12.
It makes a lot of sense for AMD to stop working on Mantle and start working on DX12. Also, they pushed it nicely. Here’s a list of games and engines that supported it (or will support it):
-Battlefield 4
-Battlefield Hardline
-Dragon Age: Inquisition
-Thief
-Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare
-Civilization: Beyond Earth
-Sniper Elite III
-Star Wars: Battllefront
-Star Citizen
-Mirror’s Edge Catalyst
Please prove how mantle pushed 12 prove it to me it’s your claim which means nothing I want to hear it from someone at amd or Microsoft to. If not burden of proof is all you have
A quote from a journalist (who quoted AMD devs):
“And if Mantle is ultimately subsumed by DirectX — so what? When I first talked to AMD about the next-generation API at APU13, the developers candidly told me that the long-term goal was to get Microsoft and the Khronos Group in charge of OpenGL to adopt a Mantle-like architecture. The entire point of Mantle was to spur game development and drive the adoption of a better standard.”
And a quote from AMD:
“Yesterday several articles were published that reported that DirectX and OpenGL are being extended to include closer-to-metal functionality and reduced CPU overhead. AMD supports and celebrates a direction for game development that is aligned with AMD’s vision of lower-level, ‘closer to the metal’ graphics APIs for PC gaming. While industry experts expect this to take some time, developers can immediately leverage efficient API design using Mantle, and AMD is very excited to share the future of our own API with developers at this year’s Game Developers Conference.”
I’d link to the source article but doing so would flag my comment because it contains a link. You can copy and paste a portion of each quote in Google to find the article. AMD wanted Microsoft and the Khronos Group to create APIs that were closer to the metal. That was their goal from the beginning.
“to adopt a Mantle-like architecture” well rereading it proves that this seems to be the case its not like you are saying 12 is mantle with a directx logo those are the people who get me nuts i mean 2 thing can be made entirely different to do the same thing at the end.
I believe Vulkan is based on Mantle but I don’t think DX12 is. If it is, then I’d be surprised.
I give a comment above with a picture talking about the same thing.
Thanks for the heads up.
So, your argument is a partial declaration of people that works in AMD, very objective.
Re-read what you wrote and maybe then you’ll realize the stupidity of what you just said.
Oh, and I’ll leave this quote here from Microsoft:
“[…] You asked us to bring you even closer to the metal and to do so on an unparalleled assortment of hardware. You also asked us for better tools so that you can squeeze every last drop of performance out of your PC, tablet, phone and console.”
Pretty sure AMD said there wasn’t going to be a DX12 because they denied the existence of it and then surprised us with Mantle not long after. Pretty sure Frostbite 3 was a testing ground for Mantle and AMD’s Multi-threading since FX CPUs perform really well with Frostbite 3 engine. I doubt it was free to AMD either so I hope AMD got a lot of money out of Mantle, otherwise it was a waste of time.
You’re right. Shortly before Mantle’s release, they said that DirectX 12 wasn’t in the works. I don’t know why they made such a statement but they definitely supported something that was closer to the metal, Mantle or otherwise.
I wasn’t aware of AMD’s FX series CPUs performing well in Frostbite 3 games. And I don’t know how much money AMD made from Mantle but the fact that non-Frosbite games supported it tells me developers were interested. It boosted the performance of gaming PCs with weaker CPUs.
Do you think Microsoft would have released DirectX 12, in its current form, if Mantle didn’t exist?
It’s hard to say but knowing how Microsoft kill competition, maybe they did.
That is not a lot.
This is another sign(of rumor) that MS is really buying AMD/ATI , DX12 ftw
Yeah, closed apis FTW… facepalm.
apparently you did not see DX12 test comparisons to other api’s
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8962/the-directx-12-performance-preview-amd-nvidia-star-swarm
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/3DMark-API-Overhead-Feature-Test-Early-DX12-Performance
so yea DX12 FTW,
Please Dont QQ and wait for your Vulcan
That sux, but at least it made a push towards some new APIs.
#TeamVulkan it is then. 😛
That sucks. I hope this doesn’t mean that rumors about M$ buying AMD are true and they don’t want a competitor against DX12. It’s sad to hear bad news from AMD (every time) even though I’m nVIDIA user.
I always liked AMD’s universal policies and after hearing their CEO Lisa Su’s speech, I am thinking about switching to AMD, just because she speaks like Jodie Foster.
Without Mantle DX12 and Vulcan would take forever to come out. We can thank AMD for taking the 1st step and accelerating the process.
I don’t think so, Mantle was never going to be a DX killer and maybe Microsoft let AMD do the work for them. AMD need to get something out of this and it could be DX12 might actually go their way, if not then they failed to get anything out of Mantle or DX12.
Ever wonder why AMD are in trouble with possible takeovers or money issues? It’s money losing stunts like Mantle and banking on multi-threading with the FX line of CPUs, both are a loss. If Fury doesn’t perform as good as 900 series in DX12, it’s another loss for AMD and HBM tech.
That’s a rather simplistic view Sean. Both DX12 and Vulcan are heavily drawing from Mantle as Mantle is the base for both. I’ll give you one example.
In addition, this becomes quite evident when viewing DX12 benchmarks with AMD vs Nvidia. AMD is seeing much larger gains from this as well as brining new life into their CPU’s. Here is an example of this.
That doesn’t show real world usage
Of course, but they do give a small measure of what the performance could potentially be. AMD cards here do have a much higher draw call.
Theoretical numbers don’t always tell the real story, you should learn this, also if you ever read “theoretical peak” you know that number is too good to be true. Fury X has theoretical peak of nearly double the TFLOPS of a GTX 980 but in real world it just doesn’t work that way.
Right, but batch calls aren’t theoretical, just its applied performance can be. My point in posting the DX12 benchmarks was to show that AMD is already leading the way as they are very well integrated in to the infrastructure if you will of DX.
FPS is the think what matters. No draw calls. If AMD GPUs will have more than 50% draw calls and equal FPS in comparing to their competitor, it will be the number with same value as theoretical SP and DP performance numbers.
Mantle actually gave me a decent boost in Inquistion but ONLY in the right situations like this one scene where I was cpu limited, my fps dropped to 25 in DX11 but with mantle, it stayed at about 35+ fps. In dx mode where I got that lower performance, my gpu usage dropped to the 70s but with mantle it stayed at it’s constantly 99%.
I don’t really care afor mantle specifically and I’m assuming DX12 will bring hte same benefit but AMD has this bad issue in DX11 that Digital Foundry noted as well where the GPU usage will drop at times in certain games and so does the framerate and this has happened to me in Call Of Duty Advanced Warfare and Far Cry 4. DX12 and Mantle will fix these driver issues but I wouldn’t really care either way which one as long as I get the performance boost 🙂
Yeah when I had my R9 280, Mantle was great for games I tried so can’t really complain about real world usage. Though I was using a FX-8350 so Mantle helped a lot in that regard.
This magazine and others has been using this same type of benchmarks test to show how DX 12 is the next “big thing”. Arent they real world usage too?
So I guess all those DX12 performance articles are a bunch of marketing sh 1 t.
Yep, they’re just theoretical since they have zero real world games to test it on, even 3Dmark is theoretical. I’ll go further, benchmarks are just an indication of performance, not your performance or the performance you will necessarily get
Did you check DX11 first before posting that? DX11 can do some of those things(the part about the TDR). Also, going low level would make it like Mantle anyway like any low level API.
That’s true
Yep. Mantle was only a Prelude for much more to come, and now We all know what was that: New Low API’s for PC Gaming (console like) Vulcan and DX12 with Tier_3 exclusive for Radeon GCN GPU’s. Ofcourse we will wait a little bit for Full utilisation, and nV GPU’s will take adventage also 😉 So everybody will be Happy, but nV make 1 Big mistake a year ago: AMD talked to them to support Mantle but nV rejected it 🙁 Now nV GPU’s like 780,980 don’t even match the Radeon 280X and R285…
===
Don’t lie, AMD rejected any other gpu builder than aproached to Mantle.
You can see the intel case, when in the past summer intel wanted to enter in the Mantle program and was rejected by AMD.
The public excuse that AMD gave to this was bullshit:
“That intel could wait two months more at much, for the public release of the SDK”. One year after, AMD don’t release the SDK yet, and it’s killing all the project, before it will publicly available.
Nvidia didn’t show interest about mantle, but is a lie to say that “rejected” mantle like as AMD went to the doors of nvidia with the offer of Mantle, this isn’t true. The facts proved it, with the intel case.
AMD NEVER thought to give access to the rivals to Mantle. It’s a lie of its PR department. Huddy knows much about lying to the people.
Thats because Mantle was Alpha stage in that long time ago…
I’m refering to more recent time. Intel has Green light, but when it’s ready… And for a long time now Mantle is Open to everybody.
Remeber its Open Project and was released to push/show that Low API on PC is POSSIBLE !
Don’t lie man AMD gave Mantle to Khronos Group so now everybody has access to Mantle including Intel or Nvidia.
I searched for hey keynote solely to hear her voice. You are right, she does sound a bit like Jodie Foster lol
A speech will make you switch graphics cards? It seems you’re highly susceptible to marketing and image manipulation.
This makes me wonder how many people would buy computer hardware just because it’s got Jay-Z’s name on it.
Repair your joke detector.
Mantle is the future nvidia got no chance to survive mantle will destroy dx12
You are delusional.
I think he’s sarcastic.
Ha ha nailed it and I bet their is trolls in the comments below that say mantle made 12 although amd themselves claimed 12 wasn’t coming when mantle was made. OH wait there’s probably more trolls in the comments claiming 12 is mantle yeah OK lol then why would it be so hard to keep working on it? Amd is without a doubt a lier their marketing has always been a major joke and in most cases so is their management. Seems like all the lies started a little before the first phenom.
Also Intel lies to remember their claims with their igpu and their claims about it beating a 640. Nvidia also does some stuff but man it just seems like every single thing amd does all the way back to the first phenom they have to use fallacious arguments to back them up. Even with the recent fury comparing it to a titan instead of a 980ti to make the value argument all though according to techpowerup fury loses to the 980ti in every resolution and it uses more power while doing so and it cost the same like wtf.
Yep, GTX 980 TI is a great marketing move by NVIDIA and it comes with 6GB, as it turns out, AMD have no answer to it. and it blew all the wind out of the 300 series release and Fury. Those big memory bandwidth numbers are basically doing nothing on the Fury, even at 4K resolutions.
From day one i thought it would be hard for the marketing department to advertise both the 4GB HBM fury and the 8GB GDDR5 390X for 4K gaming
Agreed, Some strange marketing indeed.
Clearly you haven’t seen it in crossfire.
Doesn’t change the fact that the Fury X has only 4GB of VRAM and will be limited by that in crossfire.
So no then.
If you had you would realize that is not true whatsoever. Tweaktown has some duel 4k monitor tests they just did.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/R9_Fury_X/29.html
Yeah last time i checked i didn’t want over 900 watts going to the GPU’s Only
I love how you managed to find the benchmark with the highest power draw numbers.
http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/7226/amd-radeon-r9-fury-video-cards-crossfire/index7.html
Not sure if you saw the benchmarks but the 980Ti beat the fury at every single resolution and came even with 4K while using less power
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/R9_Fury_X/31.html
HBM only allowed them to compete more evenly with the same memory Nvidia used it would have been a major loser. Nvidia will have HBM2 next year will Amd have a better or newer architecture for their GPU? Maybe lets hope so if not its the 8800 ultra gen all over again.
Yet it stutters in games like Shadow of Mordor at 4K. When we all know it goes over 4GB’s.
“THE FUTURE OF GAMING” “MANTLE IS GAME CHANGING” !!!!!!111!!!1!!!!!!!!!111!!!1!!!1xDXDXDXddxddxdxdxdxdxd
Another day another failure from AMD. Good news.
Can you even economics? Derp
In some way, you are worst than console fanboys.
These guys can’t seem to catch a break..
I suppose MS buying AMD would be a good thing. Maybe it would allow AMD to finally become competitive for again? This corp hasn’t been the same since the Athlon. And frankly we need them or Intel will not only continue to sit on their fat a**es, but prices will inevitably go up even more.
“This is exactly what NVIDIA claimed a few months ago, and that’s precisely why the green team did not support this API”.
Few things here. Intel asked AMD for Mantle and AMD gave Mantle to the Kronos group who controls OpenGL and who has Intel, Nvidia and AMD on the board. Mantle is now Vulkan which supports Intel, AMD, Nvidia GPU’s, just like DX 12 docs look just like Mantle. 9xx added GCN “DX 12 features” which Kepler did not have. AMD created those hardware features TWO YEARS AGO with Hawaii and GCN.
The writer of this article ignores Vulkan API which is backed by huge studios and every major game engine, because they are betting on two horses if MS drops the ball on Win 10. You ignore that Mantle code and the entire API was given to NVIDIA, and Intel who are board members of the Kronos group. You ignore that the Kronos group oficially thanked AMD at 2015 GDC and said without AMD Vulkan would not be far in development.
I expect this kind of article by someone like PCPER or Nvidia (Linus) Tech Tips. Not DSO. Consider rewriting this article. If you rely on a site like Linus Tech Tips WAN shows for information about this stuff? Might want to consider a different source.
BTW? Mantle was about getting broad adoption on low level API’s from MS and OpenGL, to help AMD CPU’s which could struggle in our current API. In that sense it was a MASSIVE success. AMD GOT THAT ADOPTION.
Indeed, check out my posts below mate.
You are so correct. They even mention this in the very beginning, that it doesn’t matter if it takes off or not. They wanted to prove that the pc needed a low level API and they did. And whats the problem if Nvidia will be faster. All its about a better API that the PC so desperately needs.
you have a dellusional state of the reality.
Intel went to AMD to access to Mantle, and AMD REJECTED intel. Point.
You are lying with your try of conecting the rejected of intel by amd with a absurd “cesion” of Mantle to Khronos group, that is whatever another lie.
AMD collaborate with some ideas related with mantle in the Vulkan project, but you show that you don’t have a idea about how runs the development of a API if you think that Khronos group are using a Mantle core to Vulkan (it’s absurd).
Don’t be a moron that repeat lies that only satisfied other fanboys.
For the statements released by Khronos Group, Vulkan is possible in this form because of Mantle.
“Khronos Group has chosen the best and brightest parts of Mantle to serve as the foundation for Vulkan.”
You are just a buthurt AMD hater.
*luckily.
Why would they? DX 11 multi threading is garbage. AMD is also in the CPU business and their CPU’s were crippled by an archaic API that looked hilarious next to the low level API’s the consoles have used for a long time now. DX 11 under Windows 10 performance is outstanding in Windows 10 on AMD cards. People have seen massive gains on games like Project Cars in Windows 10.
Our API simply sucks (DX 11) in many CPU bound games. It sucks on my high 4 ghz 4770k, it sucks on my 4690k. 30 FPS highs in Guild Wars 2 during hectic battles on a OC Haswell are not great. Newer open world games also run like absolute garbage on PC.
Without AMD we would not even have DX 12. DX 12 does not help MS’s stupid Xbox, which is a lie they sell through astroturfers on sites like IGN. It KILLS it’s value. MS never wanted to give us this, and they sure as heck did not want to give it to us as a free upgrade. This is the same company that kept DX 11.1 behind Win 8 to sell OS’s, which is why we only have ONE DX 11.1 game in existence. They did the same with DX 11.2 which is why we have ZERO 11.2 games. MS has purposely held back PC Gaming and done it often to make a killing selling us Windows upgrades.
Why do you think these laughable “tech journalists” never benchmarked say a I7-920 with Mantle on DA I, or a I3? Instead they benchmarked freaking OC Haswell’s on Thief or a shooter. DA:I saw over 40 percent gains on a OC I7-920. Most “PC Gamers” prob have a I3 with HT, not an I7 K… The funny thing? I guarantee when DX 12 comes out, these corrupt, clown, paid off “tech journalists” who bashed Mantle will talk about AMAZING gains on older I7’s and I3’s.
Everyone should get down on their knees and kiss AMD’s, Valve’s arse that we are even getting DX 12, and that it is a free upgrade. Doesn’t matter if you are on an AMD CPU or a high OC Haswell like me, or an Nvidia GPU or an AMD GPU or even an Intel integrated GPU.
DX 11 multithreading runs correctly with… nvidia drivers. It’s a problem of the shitty implementation of AMD in its driver, not a microsoft problem.
Yes, it’s not perfect, but AMD with its drivers makes that multithreading drawcalls of DX11 never went used by developers, because of its problems running it.
A bitter better performance on it is best than nothing, the multithreading of DX11 isn’t comparable to the console-type support, Mantle, DX12 or Vulkan implementations.
But if you have worse performance in a great percentage of the DX11 graphic cards, the developers NEVER are going to use it. It’s the case of multithreading support of drawcalls in DX11 (with command lists, by example).
Blah blah Mantle=DirectX 12.Anandtech sucks sometimes.
Without Mantle no longer DX12 and we still be using ’till …forever DX11.
Of course Amd dont support Mantle now because DX12 will come this year,so the Mantle did his duty as a Pioneer of next DX development.
Thanks to Amd&Mantle this year we will have a new Api named DirectX 12 (and soon will come Vulcan)
So, then Microsoft developed a functional alpha of DX12 with sdks and running API in around …. 4 months later that AMD showed and talked Mantle.
And more interesting, nvidia made a functional DX12 driver in <4 months too, because microsoft showed a demo running a game with DX12 with nvidia hardware.
And the last one, the developers of the game ported it to this demoshow (<<4 monthts, they needed the running API, a workable SDK, and a functional fckng driver).
People, you are morons if you think that. It's so stupid to think something like this, that you are cannon fodder to frauds. Holy shit.
It’s not disappointing, it was intended. Mantle paved the way, helped to spread the low-level concept and officially contributed to shape Vulkan. Both new APIs tackle the same principals as Mantle, unlock a more hardware focused optimization, help to bypass DX driver typical issues/limitations, and help tap performance from AMD hardware/designs, even opening more windows of possible clever use of APUs. There’s no need for Mantle now, and that is an advantage, because AMD can now shift their investment and focus to other things. AMD is happy with both DX12 and Vulkan, because both do want they wished and pushed for with Mantle, and they know and have experience with what benefits it brings to their hardware.
No, it’s not true. Mantle NEVER was showed as a “transitional” API, you can deny the reality privately, but not publicly.
The “universal character” of Mantle never existed, only runs in windows, only with limited support to GCN cards (not any other DX11 card of AMD), AMD rejected other gpu builders like intel, what the fucking are you saying with this nonsense of Mantle==Vulkan?
Vulkan is a true multiplatform API, Mantle never reach a shadow of this. Vulkan is founded in the OpenGL model as Mantle, all the parallellism is purely convergence of the solution and the model of programing.
OMG, how many AMDfanboys with a intense DRF!!
Oh look Nvidia astroturfers selling fairy tales. Meanwhile anyone on this forum can watch the Kronos Vulkan API presentation and watch Kronos officially thanked AMD for Mantle and their involvement in Vulkan and said it would be impossible without them.
The Kronos board includes Nvidia, Intel, AMD.
Are you calling the Kronos group (which includes Nvidia) liars? This is why I will never be supporting Nvidia again. Lying about ROPs/Cache on the 970 was one thing. Illegally astroturfing forums non stop 24/7 with LIES, and attacking any legitimate criticism or facts (they did the same to their own users for chrome not working on WHQL drivers until a recent BETA fix, and also attacked 970 customers mad they were lied to) is just ridiculous.
We simply need more strict astroturfing laws passed. People like you belong in jail, not polluting forums with fairy tales.
https://disqus.com/by/doublemeehhh/
Looking at this profile (languages used)? You may be innocent and just be an imbecile who watches LTT WAN shows that knows NOTHING. Hate to break it to you, but LTT is in Nvidia’s pocket and so is PCPER. In that case? You are just a weak minded fool.
wtf is mantle?
low level API like DirectX
DirectX is not low level, only DX12.
DX12 not DX11
i don’t think this is a surprise for anyone!
Mantle was good because they push DX12 faster to come out but still it was hard for Mantle to be alive in this market and now with DX 12….
So we can confirm Microsoft is buying AMD… Western “Capitalism” doesnt seems to like competition, If some company have the money, buy the competition and get a market control.
No…Guild Wars 2 ran like garbage on my GTX 770 as well when I had that card years ago. Multithreading in DX 11 is garbage. That is why both AMD and Nvidia cards needed a XML edit to even play Far Cry 4 without stuttering while driving vehicles. Nvidia had true multi thread support in DX 11, and so does AMD under Windows 10 (you can see Project Cars comparisons, where the physx overhead no longer matters).
While it was a little better, it was still awful and that is why AMD didn’t care. They wanted a REAL low level API, not a bandaid fix that still didn’t help truly CPU bound games like a MMO, open world game.
What can DX 11 multi threading help? An awful physx library that is horribly optimized and that devs are now skipping for the new Havok anyways, on a game that never should have been CPU bound to begin with. It is a racing game not a MMO…
Dude Guild Wars 2 is DirectX 9 not 11 , please stop you have no idea.
I never said that simply Mantle=Vulkan. Vulkan took a leap in early development (called “glNext” at the time) by adopting a significant portion of Mantle code/concepts. Khronos officially said it more than one time already. The benefits it brings are similar and beyond what Mantle did, because it’s a wider API, supports many vendors and OS’s, and it’s going to be more optimized overall over time because… that’s Khronos group core business! AMD never had the budget to make and develop Mantle API for long. They would eventually open it and hope the industry could test it and push for the same goals as standards. That happened when Khronos group (that includes partners like Intel and nVidia as well) adopted part of it as a base of work for Vulkan, and when DX12 was shown to be aiming for similar results. Mantle would be very GCN specific, and even more close to metal, but it would require maintenance/developing, devs adoption, and also spending… resources AMD couldn’t spare for long. That’s why they are thrilled for DX12 and Vulkan, they both do what was also intended by Mantle, and what benefits hardware/driver development and optimizations. Maintaining Mantle would be therefore redundant and wasteful. The API standards changed for good, that was they were hoping for.
No point to bother they always want to believe that AMD is a savior lol.
Just a heads up to the author , this site has plagiarized your article line for line http://tech4gamers.com/amd-stopping-mantle-optimization-and-support-for-future-graphics-cards/
you’ll be surprised by the amount of sites ‘borrowing’ our stories without including a source (and without editing the text itself).
too bad
Techpowerup is easily the best site as it compares the cards among many games and gives a easy percentage comparison
Also I looked at that link and they only used battlefield 4 at ultra at 1440P you will not get max power consumption that way as I know that from my own testing using the power meter